To the reader:

Some time ago, Daniel Winters initiated correspondence with Elder Wm. H. Grotheer which ended inconclusively, entirely due to Winters’ lack of comprehension of what Elder Grotheer was trying to convey to him.  Winters published the correspondence on his website.  Following is a hyperlink to the exchanges:

In November of last year Winters accosted about this website, which had recently been published.  Following is the correspondence which ensued:

---- Original Message ---‑

> From: "Daniel Winters" <>

> To: <>

>Sent: Sunday, Nov 30, 2003 1:11 pm

>Subject: Re: regarding William Grotheer and the Spirit of Prophecy


>In the recent WWN (that i have asked many tίmes to be taken off the mailing list), your website's URL was >listed, so I just went and looked at it. I don't know why you have taken it upon yourself to promote Elder >Grotheer's theories, but i can tell you for a certainty, that he does NOT believe in the Spirit of Prophecy - >especially when it directly contradicts some of his pet ideas like the times of the Gentiles being fulfilled in 1967 >etc.


>Elder Grotheer and i had correspondence, and he made his feelings towards the SOP clear. I have put the >correspondence up on the Internet, and you can view it here:


>This is just for your information. I too believe the Elder Grotheer has done a lot of good, but he is definitley >leading souls astray at the current time.


>May God watch over all hίs sheep,

>Daniel Winters >

>PS:  Your web site looks nice


From:  <>                                                          Sent:  Tue Dec 2, 2003 9:02 am

Το:  <Daniel Winters <>                                    Priority: Normal
regarding William Grotheer and the Spirit of Prophecy

Dear Bro. Winters:


Thank you for your e-mail message. The division of responsibilities for the website assigns doctrinal matters to Elder Grotheer. However, your message raises questions about the website itself, and the nature of your doctrinal statements demand a reply from me. My reply will be fairly detailed, so Ι probably cannot write it until the latter part of this week at the earliest. However, be assured that I will reply in detail.


Again, thanking for your Interest, and the compliment on the appearance of the website, Yours very sincerely,


Text Box: regarding William Grotheer and the Spirit of Prophecy - vDeck WebMail System - Msg	Page 1 of '3 


From:<                                                                                                            Sent:  Dec 13, 2003 10:33 pm

T0:           Daniel Winters <>                                                                                                                    Priority:  Normal
Subject:  regarding William Grotheer and the Spirit of Prophecy

Dear Daniel Winters:


I perused your e-mail message briefly before writing my last reply hurriedly. I did not notice the hyperlink to the website where you have published the exchange of correspondence with Elder Grotheer. I have since read the letters, and arrived at the conclusion that I would accomplish nothing by sending you a "detailed" reply on the subject of Luke 21:24. You take facts that are stated as clearly as could be, and twist them into meanings quite different from those of the writer. It is impossible to dialogue rationally in that fashion. Small wonder then, that Elder Grotheer did not respond to your last letter. He has already dealt with your objections with a degree of scholarship and logic that Ι cannot match. The unfolding fulfillment of prophecy is understood by making logical deductions from the facts of history and current events. This was the case in establishing 457 B.C. as the starting date of Daniel's prophecy of the 2300 days, as it was the case in establishing 538 A.D. as the starting date of the 1260 years of papal supremacy. The beginning and ending of each of these periods, and the events in between, were all established as fulfillment of the prophecies by the incontrovertible evidence of history. Elder Grotheer's exegesis of Luke 21:24 is no more "theory" than the established exegeses of these two great prophecies. If you cannot "see" the Truth presented in his letters and the issues of Watchman, What of the Night,? one can only hope that conviction will be brought to your mind by the Holy Spirit through some other means.


What amazes me is that you presume to challenge a man highly regarded for his scholarship, even by those who do not agree with his biblical exegesis) You have demonstrated an abysmal ignorance of the Bible, and also the very "SOP" that you boast of using as your guide. For example, you go all the way to Rev. 19 in attempting to disprove that the High Priest was garbed in linen from head to toe on the Day of Atonement. Why not exercise simple common sense and read the chapter of the Bible that settles the issue? I refer to the opening verses of Lev. 16. Then read Dan. 10:5-8, and what Ellen G. White wrote about that vision in , Feb. 8, 1881. Read Eze. 9, as she counsels in 3T, p. 267. Note how Eze. 9 is woven into the testimony "The Seal of God, in 5T, p. 211. You, like a host of others, are a present-day fulfillment of Isa. 6:9-10 and Man. 13:14-15. 1 would recommend a heartfelt prayer that, "the eyes of your understanding being enlightened" by the Holy Spirit; you may hear and understand, see and perceive. I never cease to utter that prayer for myself, because of our Lord's own warning in Matt. 24:24. There is also this grave warning from the Spirit of Prophecy:


I have been shown that Satan has not been stupid and careless these many years, since his fall, but has been learning. He has grown more artful. His plans are laid deeper, and are more covered with a religious garment to hide their deformity. The power of Satan now to tempt and deceive is ten-fold greater than it was in the days of the apostles. His power has increased, and it will increase, until it is taken away. (2 SG, p,277; emphasis supplied.)


Anyone who is dismissive of Ellen G. White's own repeated counsel setting forth the primacy of the Bible, and persists in rejecting the clear statements of the Bible when there is conflict with the Writings is in great peril! Persistence in trying to reconcile conflicts, or in misusing the Writings as the ultimate expositor of the Bible leads to hopeless confusion. That confusion is compounded by ignoring the counsel, "Regarding the testimonies, nothing is ignored; nothing is cast aside; but time and place must be considered" (1SM, p. 57.) A classic example is her warnings of the 1880s. The following two are dated 1881:

I would, at this time, sound the note of warning to those who shall assemble at our camp meeting. The end of all things is at hand. (5T. 16.)

Brethren and sisters, I have been shown that we are standing upon the threshold of the eternal world. (5T. 18)



Text Box: regarding William Grotheer and the Spirit of Prophecy - vDeck WebMail System - Msg	Page 2 of 3 


These statements would be appropriate for the present time; but nobody uses them in that context. Why? Because it would defy logic to do so. In context these statements clearly applied to that specific time. I assure you that it equally defies logic to expect a great influx of genuine conversions, now or in the future, into a Church that, as predicted by Ellen G. White, is sinking deeper and deeper into apostasy. Yet, that is precisely how Great Controversy is applied today, even by those who abhor the apostasy, and I suspect that this is one reason why your mind is closed to the reality that the prophecy of Luke 21:24 has been fulfilled and the work of preaching the gospel as a witness to all nations is closed. In this context read Early Writings, pp. 271 (last paragraph) & 272 (first paragraph,) for a description of the conditions under which the Loud Cry message is proclaimed.


There are some vital elements of Present Truth that can be understood and accepted only by choosing the Bible over the Writings. One such is the Sanctuary doctrine, involving the judgment and the Final Atonement, studied in the light of Jesus' own statement in John 5:24:


Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and belίeveth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, end shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (K)V)

Most assuredly, I saγ to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (NKJV)

Verily, verily, I saγ to you — He who is hearing my word  and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life. (Young's Literal Translation, emphasis supplied)


The following is taken completely from Patriarchs and Prophets. Note the errors in what was written by Mrs. White, and the correction made by subsequent editors. Was the Holy Spirit responsible for the errors? Absolutely not! Is it a repudiation of the spiritual gift bestowed on her to recognize the error? Very definitely not! This quotation, with a couple of comments by me, closes my message, leaving you to work out the rest for yourself.

The most important part of the daily ministration was the service performed in behalf of individuals. The repentant sinner brought his offering to the door of the tabernacle, and, placing his hand upon the victim's head, confessed his sins, thus in figure transferring them from himself to the innocent sacrifice. By his own hand the animal was then slain, and the blood was carried by the priest into the holy place and sprinkled before the veil, behind which was the ark containing the law that the sinner had transgressed. By this ceremony the sin was, through the blood, transferred in figure to the sanctuary. In some cases the blood was not taken into the holy place; [SEE APPENDIX, NOTE 6.] but the flesh was then to be eaten by the priest, as Moses directed the sons of Aaron, saying, "God hath given it you to bear the iniquity of the congregation." Leviticus 10:17. Both ceremonies alike symbolized the transfer of the sin from the penitent to the sanctuary. (PP, pp. 354-355, emphasis supplied)






Text Box: regarding William Grotheer and the Spirit of Prophecy - vDeck WebMail System - Msg	Page 3 of 3 

We are carried into the judgment in Jesus Christ. We are accepted in the Beloved, and His righteousness alone merits our salvation. He was made to be sin for us, who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. That was the significance of the  flesh being eaten by the priest in the court, at the altar of burnt offering, symbolizing the Cross of Calvary. There is where we meet Our Lord as He completes His work in the judgment of the antitypical Day of Atonement. The order of the cleansing of the Sanctuary on the Day of Atonement verifies that it is in the Outer Court, in other words at the cross, that Jesus completes His work of Final Atonement.

Very sincerely, Webmaster

From: <> - regarding William Grotheer and the Spirit of Prophecy

---- Original Message ---‑

> From: "Daniel Winters" <>

> To: <>

>Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2004 8:24 PM

>Subject: Re: regarding William Grotheer and the Spirit of Prophecy

> >

> > Hello webmaster,

> > I just wondered if you have had a chance to write a fairly detailed reply?

> > Perhaps my email box was full.

> > Praying you have a peaceful walk with our Saviour - Jesus Christ – today:

> > Daniel Winters

> >

---- Original Message ---‑

> > From: <>

> >To: “Daniel Winters”

> > Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2004 11:47 ΑΜ

> > Subject: Re: regarding William Grotheer and the Spirit of Prophecy

> Hello Daniel Winters:


> First of all I have only just received your message. Α switch of web hosting
> service resulted in a problem accessing web mail.


> Next, I don't know what you could possibly mean by your question. I sent
> you a detailed reply a long time ago. The e-mail message was not returned.


> Do you want me to send you a duplicate? I believe that I have a copy in my
> computer files.


> Best wishes,


> Web master


---- Original Message --‑

From: "Daniel Winters" <>

To: <>

Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 12:55 ΑΜ

Subject: Re: regardίng William Grotheer and the Spίrίt of Prophecy


I'm sorry about whatever mixup there was, but i have never received anything
from except a very short message saying that you were
going to reply in detail in the future.

I'm sorry if my email box was full or whatever, it should handle up to
around 300KB.  If you could possibly send it again, it would be appreciated
very much.

Daniel Winters

> >

From: <>

To: “Daniel Winters”

Sent:              Saturday, February 21, 2004 10:43 ΑΜ

Subject: Re: regarding William Grotheer and the Spirit of Prophecy


I will resend the text just as soon as I am finίshed dealing with a serίous websίte problem.

Brace yourself, because I do not handle thίs issue gently. However, what I have written needs to be communicated to you for your own sake.

Sίncerely, Webmaster



From:         <>

To: “Daniel Winters”

Sent:              Saturday, February 21, 2004 5:22 PM

Subject: Re-sent e-mail

Hello Daniel Winters:

The text of the December e-mail message has been sent. Let me know again if you do not receive it.

Very sincerely,



Το:          <Daniel Winters <>                     Priority:  Normal

Sent:  March 26, 2004 11:13 a.m.

Subject: regarding William Grotheer and the Spirit of Prophecy

Dear Daniel Winters:


I have not heard from you that you did not receive the following re-sent e-mail; however, what I have just noticed suggests that I may simply have sent it to myself.  To be quite sure that you have the opportunity of reading it, I am now forwarding it to you.






(See Text of December 13, 2003, e-mail above, following the Daniels-Grotheer correspondence)



----- Original Message -----

From: Daniel Winters


Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 9:05 PM

Subject: Re: Re: regarding William Grotheer and the Spirit of Prophecy


Hello webmaster,

Yes, the contents of this email were received on February 21.  I sent the following reply on February 22:


Thank you for your detailed reply webmaster,

I'm sorry to see you also following the hellish torch of false prophecy, and of setting yourself superior to the inspiration of the Holy Ghost as given to Bible writers and Ellen White.  That is surely one sign of the last days.


May you and Mr. Grotheer both repent and be converted,

Daniel Winters


----- Original Message -----

From: (

To: Daniel Winters

Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2004 10:35 AM

Subject: The zeal of Daniel Winters that is not according to knowledge

To Daniel Winters:

I realized after I sent my last e-mail message what I had done.  After sending the e-mail dated February 21, I then moved the sent message to my inbox in case of the need for further action.  I had forgotten how it got there.

I take your claim to have replied on February 22, with a grain of salt, as also your claim that you did not receive my original e-mail sent on December 13, 2003.  E-mails do not just disappear into a void.  They are returned if not deliverable; as that of December 13 would have been if your mailbox was full.  You know the truth of the matter.  If, as I suspect, you are playing silly games with our e-mail exchanges, it is grossly unbecoming when dealing with matters of grave significance.

Now, as to my following the hellish torch of false prophecy, and setting [myself] superior to the inspiration of the Holy Ghost as given to Bible writers and Ellen White, who set you up to be a reliable judge of these things?  You have revealed enough about the way your mind works to enable me to state with confidence that you are ill-equipped to make judgments on matters of Bible exposition.  If I were in your position I would tread very softly indeed.  At the beginning of the history of the Christian Church, the learned Doctor Gamaliel counseled the Sanhedrin as follows:

And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:  But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.  (Acts 5:38-39)

Furthermore, if you are wrong, as I know you are, you are on very dangerous ground, because the Holy Spirit through the prophet Isaiah said:

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!  Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!  (Isa. 5:20-21)

Oh!  But you say, Elder Grotheer attacks other Seventh-day Adventists.  He doesn’t!  He attacks false doctrines, and he backs up every attack with reasoned proof from the Bible, and where necessary from the Writings of Sister White.  Now you say, “How dare Webmaster judge me as wrong, when he warns me against judging him wrong!”  The answer is that you are judged by the Bible, of which as I stated in my e-mail of December 13, you clearly are abysmally ignorant; and there I showed you proof from the Bible.  Again the Holy Spirit spoke through the prophet Isaiah:

Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.  For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:  (Isa. 28:9-10)

You have shown no evidence of studying like that, but rather the contrary.  The fact is that a believer who studies as counseled by the Bible, can be sure of standing on solid ground.  The Bible student who perseveres in searching diligently for sound doctrine, will progressively settle into the Truth, to borrow from an expression in the Writings.  Then the student is equipped to challenge false doctrines with reasoned proof from the Bible, and not as private opinion which cannot be verified from the Scriptures.  Instead of being so sure of yourself, Mr. Winters, you need to pray earnestly that the Spirit of Truth will lead you into all Truth.  Beginning with a plea to the Holy Spirit for guidance, you then need to study the Bible diligently, as you have evidently not yet done, not eisegetically reading into the Scriptures what you already believe they must be saying, but exegetically seeking to understand what the Scriptures actually are saying.  The following statement from the Writings is on the About Us page of

How shall we search the Scriptures? Shall we drive our stakes of doctrine one after another, and then try to make all Scripture meet our established opinions, or shall we take our ideas and views to the Scriptures, and measure our theories on every side by the Scriptures of truth? Many who read and even teach the Bible, do not comprehend the precious truth they are teaching or studying. Men entertain errors, when the truth is clearly marked out, and if they would but bring their doctrines to the word of God, and not read the word of God in the light of their doctrines, to prove their ideas right, they would not walk in darkness and blindness, or cherish error. Many give the words of Scripture a meaning that suits their own opinions, and they mislead themselves and deceive others by their misinterpretations of God's word.  (RH, July 26, 1892, emphasis added.)

Of course you would pick out the description of the wrong way to study and pitchfork it at Elder Grotheer; but you need to note that in all of his teachings he urges his readers and hearers to study for themselves, and in effect to measure [his doctrinal positions] on every side by the Scriptures of truth.  He does not pontificate, as do so many of the Seventh-day Adventist teachers with whom you would have no quarrel, and whom you seem to emulate by your own pontificating.  You and others of your ilk, the self-appointed Correctors of Heretic Grotheer, as I would call you, who are persistently assailing the work of ordained Minister of the Gospel Grotheer, do not really know what he is teaching, because you either do not read, or you read without understanding.  For this reason, you should not go public with your criticisms.  To those who have studied thoroughly enough to arrive at understanding, what you write is foolishness; to those who rely on your interpretations you are bearing false witness, and a heavy responsibility rests on you for leading them astray.  You refuse to enter the portal of Present Truth, and block the entrance of others by reporting falsely on what Elder Grotheer teaches.  The following words of Jesus Christ bear witness against you:

But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.  Matt. 23:13

The foregoing serves a dual purpose, as a reply to your e-mail message and an introduction to another important and related matter.  I caught up only last week with a document on your website, written by you and titled Is the Bible Inerrant?  In the first paragraph appears the following sentence:

Sadly, there are many voices today in the church telling us that the Bible is "Imperfect Yet Trustworthy" 1 (SDA sponsored web site), "discrepancies we find in the Bible" 2 (Samuele Bacchiocchi), and "James took the text...and misused it" 3 (William Grotheer) etc.

This is the only place where Elder Grotheer’s name is mentioned; but it is enough to bear a false witness against his unwavering commitment to the Bible and the Bible only as the pillar and ground of all doctrine.  You want to have it both ways.  You first and above all, accuse Elder Grotheer of not believing in the SOP, because he insists on establishing all doctrine from the Bible and the Bible alone.  Then you turn right around and lump him together with others whom you see as undermining the authority of the Bible.  Your reason for doing so is an example of failure to understand what the Bible is saying to the reader.  The question is whether James took a text from the Old Testament and misused it on the fundamental doctrine of the Christian Faith.  The answer is yes.  All that you have to do is to go to the relevant passages in the Book of Genesis.  In Genesis 15 we read:

And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.  And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.  (Verses 5-6; emphasis supplied)

Now go to Chapter 22, verses 1-18.  Nowhere there will you find the words “counted to him for righteousness.”  Paul had correctly quoted from Gen. 15:5-6.  James inserted the phrase “counted to him for righteousness” into the account of an incident which took place years later, and the phrase is just not there.  This is an indisputable fact.  This is pointed out by Elder Grotheer solely in the context of the controversy that raged between James and Paul over the doctrine of Righteousness by Faith.  This is history, placed in the Bible so that we may understand today that this controversy is not new, but existed in the Christian Church from the very beginning.

Now, as between James and Paul, which one was presenting the true gospel?  Paul provides the answer:

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.  As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.  For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.  But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.  For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.  (Gal. 1:8-12; emphasis supplied)

If you read Gal. 2:12, you will get some further insight into the controversy between James and Paul, and James’ harassment of Paul, to which the harassment of Elder Grotheer by you and other misguided individuals can be compared.  As to what he believes and has adhered to over the years without deviation, the following is from the Joint Statements of Belief to which he subscribes, found in Documents on the website:

We believe that the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments, were given by the inspiration of God, and contain a full revelation of His will to man, and are the only infallible rule of faith and practice.  (Emphasis supplied)

Now you say in your document, “And yet, despite protests to the contrary, the Bible, at least that penned by the apostles, IS dictated.”  This statement is fatally flawed in the sense that you make it.  It is obvious from your words and actions that you are blissfully unaware of this.  Can I help you?  Perhaps not; but I will give it a try.  Last week I searched for scholarly dissertations that can help you to understand how the Bible has been passed on from generation to generation down through the centuries.  Following are two links to one website which are helpful.  The website is a veritable treasure trove of knowledge.  That is not to say that a Seventh-day Adventist can accept all of the results of this research; but the central point that I want to make is valid for every study that you can find on the subject of the Old and New Testament texts.  It is impossible to identify original dictated text in the Bible.  At the end of the second article the following point is made:

[The] 19th century American Southern Presbyterian theologian Robert L. Dabney. . . wrote,

This received text contains undoubtedly all the essential facts and doctrines intended to be set down by the inspired writers; for if it were corrected with the severest hand, by the light of the most divergent various readings found in any ancient MS. or version, not a single doctrine of Christianity, nor a single cardinal fact would be thereby expunged....If all the debated readings were surrendered by us, no fact or doctrine of Christianity would thereby be invalidated, and least of all would the doctrine of Christ's proper divinity be deprived of adequate scriptural support. Hence the interests of orthodoxy are entirely secure from and above the reach of all movements of modern criticism of the text whether made in a correct or incorrect method, and all such discussions in future are to the church of subordinate importance.(

The diligent Seventh-day Adventist Bible student is aware that certain of the Church’s basic doctrines are affected by some versions of the Bible.  However, what Dabney said was basically true.  Here are the links which you can type or copy into your web browser if they are not activated within this e-mail:

[To the reader:  The links are excluded from this document, to avoid any appearance of support for the theological content of the websites from which the relevant articles were selected.  The reader may search the worldwide web independently to find some of the numerous dissertations on the pure historical facts of how the Scriptures have been preserved down through the centuries.  Good judgment needs to be exercised to verify the authenticity of the historical facts.]

If you study this complex matter carefully, you will be faced with this perplexing question.  In which version(s) of the Bible, and in which source manuscript(s), are you going to find the dictated text?  There is no rational answer.  What is important is that God has preserved the substance of His inspired Word.  We need not go astray.

That we may truly be seekers after the Truth,